OK, so finals are over, I've got a month off school, and I'm sitting in my dorm room alone on a Friday night blogging about 40K eating Starbursts. How the hell do I have a girlfriend?
Anyway: my thoughts on the third of the top CSM builds, Raider Rush. I personally play Raider Rush CSM because it suits my playstyle well. The basic idea is to take a couple Land Raiders, fill them up with Berzerkers, and just mug your enemy.
So what units do you need?
Daemon Prince: Unlike the other top CSM builds, there's only really room in here for one DP. I run the MoS, WT variety when I have 5 pts to spend, otherwise it's just WT. The DP really has to pick its battles in this build because there's only one. Of course, Berzerkers really help with the heavy lifting.
Termicide: Mandatory. Absolutely mandatory. For turn 2 or 3 zerk charges, you need something to open transports, especially Raiders and the like. If a Raider is moving, it can't fire very well if at all, and there's no other ranged antitank in the build.
Zerks: You've heard my thoughts on Zerks before, and they really shine here. With the Raiders giving you the ability to pick your charges, you can always have FC on if you play it smart. Remember that the Raider has side doors that you can assault from as well.
CSM/PM: More scoring units and a followup wave. 1 unit at 1500, 2 at 1750. See my thoughts below on CSM vs. PM. I actually like CSM in Raider Rush, though, because if you need to hit a Termicide later in the game, you can do it off an IoCG.
Land Raider: The backbone of the list. Most people will tell you to just barrel forward 12" per turn and charge ASAP. This doesn't really work. You can afford to take a turn and open transports with lascannons, then move forward as Termicide drops and charge the disembarked squads. Just don't expet the Raider to do it all-you either sit and shoot, move 6" and get a LC shot, or move 12" and assault.
That's Raider Rush. The build has trouble with a lot of common things, though, including Vulkan and just about every kind of Guard. Against an enemy that has to come to you or can't stop the Raiders in time, you'll win them all.
Friday, December 11, 2009
Wednesday, December 9, 2009
Chaoszilla
OK, I'm in the middle of finals, so bear with me here if I don't make much sense at times.
The next CSM high level list I'm going to talk about is Chaoszilla. Chaoszilla is basically a Choas version of the archetypal "Nidzilla", but Chaoszilla can't take a ton of Monstrous Creatures. What CSM can do is take a lot of Walkers along with some of the best MCs in the game. What makes Chaoszilla work, as opposed to the Marine 6 dread list, is that CSM HQs complement Chaoszilla.
So what does the list look like? Well, to get the most out of Chaoszilla, you take 2 DPs, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and fill your troops slots with your favorite choice.
Let's go a bit more in-depth with the choices and why each works.
Daemon Prince: Well, it's the best CSM HQ choice anyway, and it goes along really nicely with the list-the more hard targets you fling at your opponent the better. There are 2 choices here: the MoN WT Prince for just shredding anything you come across, and the Lash Prince for getting you into HtH faster and clumping for Defiler shots. Of the choices, I personally prefer the Nurgle/WT one in this build. Though the Lash Prince does some nice stuff, the WT prince tears up things like Dreadnoughts that would kill or cripple your dreadnought or Defiler.
Dreadnoughts: I know, I'm actually saying to take Dreadnoughts. WTF? Well, with so many other similar things on the field, it doesn't really matter as much if one goes nuts for a turn (and one should go some kind of crazy every turn). 2 DCCWs, point at enemy, go.
Troops: CSM/PM/Zerk. Zerk give a lift in HtH and anti-horde, PM give Meltas for anti-LR duty and the other advantages of PMs (blights, T5, etc), and CSM are good all-rounders, with Meltas.
Defilers: Defilers should have 2 extra DCCWs. Basically, either shoot the battlecannon or fleet every turn. One you hit something, 6 S10 attacks should win you the combat. Just make sure that you don't fight something I4 or higher that can kill you before you swing.
Chaoszilla has some tougher matchups. No termicide basically means dealing with LRs in HtH, giving the contents a turn to react. Hordes can tarpit a dread or defiler for a long time. To keep the initiative, run stuff in packs and double-team enemy targets.
Raider Rush is next time.
The next CSM high level list I'm going to talk about is Chaoszilla. Chaoszilla is basically a Choas version of the archetypal "Nidzilla", but Chaoszilla can't take a ton of Monstrous Creatures. What CSM can do is take a lot of Walkers along with some of the best MCs in the game. What makes Chaoszilla work, as opposed to the Marine 6 dread list, is that CSM HQs complement Chaoszilla.
So what does the list look like? Well, to get the most out of Chaoszilla, you take 2 DPs, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and fill your troops slots with your favorite choice.
Let's go a bit more in-depth with the choices and why each works.
Daemon Prince: Well, it's the best CSM HQ choice anyway, and it goes along really nicely with the list-the more hard targets you fling at your opponent the better. There are 2 choices here: the MoN WT Prince for just shredding anything you come across, and the Lash Prince for getting you into HtH faster and clumping for Defiler shots. Of the choices, I personally prefer the Nurgle/WT one in this build. Though the Lash Prince does some nice stuff, the WT prince tears up things like Dreadnoughts that would kill or cripple your dreadnought or Defiler.
Dreadnoughts: I know, I'm actually saying to take Dreadnoughts. WTF? Well, with so many other similar things on the field, it doesn't really matter as much if one goes nuts for a turn (and one should go some kind of crazy every turn). 2 DCCWs, point at enemy, go.
Troops: CSM/PM/Zerk. Zerk give a lift in HtH and anti-horde, PM give Meltas for anti-LR duty and the other advantages of PMs (blights, T5, etc), and CSM are good all-rounders, with Meltas.
Defilers: Defilers should have 2 extra DCCWs. Basically, either shoot the battlecannon or fleet every turn. One you hit something, 6 S10 attacks should win you the combat. Just make sure that you don't fight something I4 or higher that can kill you before you swing.
Chaoszilla has some tougher matchups. No termicide basically means dealing with LRs in HtH, giving the contents a turn to react. Hordes can tarpit a dread or defiler for a long time. To keep the initiative, run stuff in packs and double-team enemy targets.
Raider Rush is next time.
Sunday, December 6, 2009
Chaos Marines: Is that all there is?
OK, so I gave Khurdur over at B&C some advice on his CSM list and he posted back:
is that all there is to chaos space marines- daemon princes, berzerkers, plague marines and as many obliterators you can fit?
My immediate thought was that he had forgotten Termicide, but then I started thinking about why the answer to his question was basically yes. Let's look at the roles each of these fills in a CSM army and why each outperforms the competition.
Daemon Princes: There's really one choice that makes a top level CSM build work here, and it's the Lash Prince. One of the main functions of any DP in a top level CSM build is to jack PM or Zerk squads out of long meatgrinder combats, and the Lash Prince seems to lose out to its competition, the MoN Warptime Prince, in this slot. I'll explain why it doesn't in a sec, but the real reason that the Lash Prince is superior is its synergystic effect on the whole list.
Yes, the much maligned CHEEZE!! Uberpower Fzorgle HURRR itself-Lash of Submission. Lash provides three main functions-grouping squads for blast templates, controlling enemy assault specialists, and dragging stuff into multicharge range for a squad of zerks. Lash's power is such that it's why the Lash Prince actually outperforms the MoN Prince in the "jack out of combat" role-fewer things make it into combat with increased efficiency Obliterator Plasma Cannons from grouping, and that large boy mob that'd bog a PM squad down for the rest of the game can be shoved back and Rhino blocked until you can deal with it. Hence, combats go faster even before the Prince joins in.
Now why Daemon Prince over Chaos Lord or Sorcerer? Well, the Lord can't have Warptime and is MUCH weaker in general (no eternal warrior, T4 base), so he can't match up in survivability or HtH power. Furthermore, an infantry-mashing lord with MoK, Claws, Combi, and Wings is 5 points more than the DP without the synergy boost to the rest of the list. An MoN, Wings, Daemon Weapon, and Combi Lord is even worse in terms of the points gap.
The Sorcerer isn't much better. A Lash/Wings Sorcerer, while he can hide in a Rhino, can only fire safely if his ride moves less than 6". And once he's out in the open, without eternal warrior, both he (and his attendant Plague Marine squad) are going to be atomised. So when the Sorcerer dies, you lose a Rhino for blocking/tank shocking off objectives, your Lash, your reasonably killy HQ, 2 meltas, a Powerfist, and a scoring unit. As opposed to losing just a Lash and a pretty killy HQ when the Prince goes under.
Plague Marines: Plague Marines really compete mainly with the amazing basic Chaos Space Marines for space in your army. So what do the PMs do better? Well, the PMs have a huge survivability advantage in the form of T5, FNP, and blight grenades. A squad of 7 PMs will survive more small arms (non armor ignoring) fire than 10 CSM, and if they get hit by something that wipes them, you can be pretty certain it would have wiped the CSM as well. What PMs do for a top level CSM list is tie down elements of the opposing army. If you have a squad riding around in your face popping off Melta at you, are you going to shoot/charge them or focus on the Obliterators? The choice gives your opponent both the opportunity to make a mistake and to tie up one of his units for a long time. While the PMs are grinding through combat (which they'll win, with a well-timed DP assist, against almost any other unit in the game), the other elements of the list can take care of the scary units in an opponent's army.
Khorne Berzerkers: Berzerkers are great in and of themselves: a scoring unit that'll beat the crap out of other army's assault specialists. They compete with Possessed (unreliable and still worse if they don't get Furious Charge or Power Weapons) and big HtH termie squads (that need a Land Raider to even see HtH), so they're our best assault unit. Are they really needed in a top level CSM list, though?
Maybe. What Berzerkers provide is an uber jack out of combat. Need that PM squad back NEXT TURN? Berzerkers. The other thing Berzerkers can do is help with enemy assault units. If there's something on the other side of the table that can reliably beat through PMs, hit it with the Zerks. If they don't kill it, they'll at least weaken it significantly. They'll also chew straight through hordes. But are they vital when you already have DPs to jack you out, Lash for assault control, and Oblits+Lash for anti-horde? Not vital, but they can be nice to have.
Obliterators: Obliterators are a godsend, and are what really kicks this list up to top tables. A 2+/5++ and 2 wounds each mean that in cover, these guys aren't going anywhere fast. A wide variety of weapons mean that Oblits can do it all and do it well. Lascannons can open transports for lashing the contents, plasma cannons can rip through anything from Terminators to Boyz after it's been clumped, TL plasma guns give them defense against DS/outflanking units, and TL meltas make the suicide-droppable. They compete with Defilers for Heavy slots and win because Defiler's can't do anti-transport or anti-terminator. Furthermore, you'll never lose an Oblit squad to a single Heavy Bolter shooting them from behind (happened to a Defiler of mine, ugh).
Now the question is composition. How many Oblits do you take? Well, at 1500, 4 leaves you enough room for a workable rest of a list. At 1750, you can take 6. At 2000, 8. Anything higher is 9 and more troops.
Now is Lash/PM/Zerk/Oblit the best build out of CSM? Yes. It has the few bad matchups and will tear through armies like Orks really effectively. There are two other builds that work pretty well out of CSM, though, and so my next two posts will talk about Chaoszilla and Raider Rush respectively.
is that all there is to chaos space marines- daemon princes, berzerkers, plague marines and as many obliterators you can fit?
My immediate thought was that he had forgotten Termicide, but then I started thinking about why the answer to his question was basically yes. Let's look at the roles each of these fills in a CSM army and why each outperforms the competition.
Daemon Princes: There's really one choice that makes a top level CSM build work here, and it's the Lash Prince. One of the main functions of any DP in a top level CSM build is to jack PM or Zerk squads out of long meatgrinder combats, and the Lash Prince seems to lose out to its competition, the MoN Warptime Prince, in this slot. I'll explain why it doesn't in a sec, but the real reason that the Lash Prince is superior is its synergystic effect on the whole list.
Yes, the much maligned CHEEZE!! Uberpower Fzorgle HURRR itself-Lash of Submission. Lash provides three main functions-grouping squads for blast templates, controlling enemy assault specialists, and dragging stuff into multicharge range for a squad of zerks. Lash's power is such that it's why the Lash Prince actually outperforms the MoN Prince in the "jack out of combat" role-fewer things make it into combat with increased efficiency Obliterator Plasma Cannons from grouping, and that large boy mob that'd bog a PM squad down for the rest of the game can be shoved back and Rhino blocked until you can deal with it. Hence, combats go faster even before the Prince joins in.
Now why Daemon Prince over Chaos Lord or Sorcerer? Well, the Lord can't have Warptime and is MUCH weaker in general (no eternal warrior, T4 base), so he can't match up in survivability or HtH power. Furthermore, an infantry-mashing lord with MoK, Claws, Combi, and Wings is 5 points more than the DP without the synergy boost to the rest of the list. An MoN, Wings, Daemon Weapon, and Combi Lord is even worse in terms of the points gap.
The Sorcerer isn't much better. A Lash/Wings Sorcerer, while he can hide in a Rhino, can only fire safely if his ride moves less than 6". And once he's out in the open, without eternal warrior, both he (and his attendant Plague Marine squad) are going to be atomised. So when the Sorcerer dies, you lose a Rhino for blocking/tank shocking off objectives, your Lash, your reasonably killy HQ, 2 meltas, a Powerfist, and a scoring unit. As opposed to losing just a Lash and a pretty killy HQ when the Prince goes under.
Plague Marines: Plague Marines really compete mainly with the amazing basic Chaos Space Marines for space in your army. So what do the PMs do better? Well, the PMs have a huge survivability advantage in the form of T5, FNP, and blight grenades. A squad of 7 PMs will survive more small arms (non armor ignoring) fire than 10 CSM, and if they get hit by something that wipes them, you can be pretty certain it would have wiped the CSM as well. What PMs do for a top level CSM list is tie down elements of the opposing army. If you have a squad riding around in your face popping off Melta at you, are you going to shoot/charge them or focus on the Obliterators? The choice gives your opponent both the opportunity to make a mistake and to tie up one of his units for a long time. While the PMs are grinding through combat (which they'll win, with a well-timed DP assist, against almost any other unit in the game), the other elements of the list can take care of the scary units in an opponent's army.
Khorne Berzerkers: Berzerkers are great in and of themselves: a scoring unit that'll beat the crap out of other army's assault specialists. They compete with Possessed (unreliable and still worse if they don't get Furious Charge or Power Weapons) and big HtH termie squads (that need a Land Raider to even see HtH), so they're our best assault unit. Are they really needed in a top level CSM list, though?
Maybe. What Berzerkers provide is an uber jack out of combat. Need that PM squad back NEXT TURN? Berzerkers. The other thing Berzerkers can do is help with enemy assault units. If there's something on the other side of the table that can reliably beat through PMs, hit it with the Zerks. If they don't kill it, they'll at least weaken it significantly. They'll also chew straight through hordes. But are they vital when you already have DPs to jack you out, Lash for assault control, and Oblits+Lash for anti-horde? Not vital, but they can be nice to have.
Obliterators: Obliterators are a godsend, and are what really kicks this list up to top tables. A 2+/5++ and 2 wounds each mean that in cover, these guys aren't going anywhere fast. A wide variety of weapons mean that Oblits can do it all and do it well. Lascannons can open transports for lashing the contents, plasma cannons can rip through anything from Terminators to Boyz after it's been clumped, TL plasma guns give them defense against DS/outflanking units, and TL meltas make the suicide-droppable. They compete with Defilers for Heavy slots and win because Defiler's can't do anti-transport or anti-terminator. Furthermore, you'll never lose an Oblit squad to a single Heavy Bolter shooting them from behind (happened to a Defiler of mine, ugh).
Now the question is composition. How many Oblits do you take? Well, at 1500, 4 leaves you enough room for a workable rest of a list. At 1750, you can take 6. At 2000, 8. Anything higher is 9 and more troops.
Now is Lash/PM/Zerk/Oblit the best build out of CSM? Yes. It has the few bad matchups and will tear through armies like Orks really effectively. There are two other builds that work pretty well out of CSM, though, and so my next two posts will talk about Chaoszilla and Raider Rush respectively.
Saturday, December 5, 2009
Chaos Daemons
So I ran mono-Tzeentch, after some playtesting, once at a tourney a couple years back (just after the codex dropped). It was awful-I lost two games and barely scraped a draw in the third. So, given that my CSM are nearly done and new Nids aren't dropping for a little while, I think I might take the time in between to fix my Daemons.
Now, there's balanced Daemon armies that can outfight just about anything in the game in HtH, there are wacky-ass Daemon builds like "Skarbrand's Bitches" or the Epidemius Tally List, and then there's mono-Tzeentch. Very little HtH power means that if you go mass horrors, you'll get multicharged right back to the Warp. Soul Grinders really don't help that much since the Lord of Change sucks and they'd be the only melta targets on the board. Furthermore, they can't really open trasports for flamer and horror anti-infantry goodness.
So taking that into consideration, my list for 1750 looks like this:
Fateweaver
333
3 Flamers
105
3 Flamers
105
3 Flamers
105
10 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
200
6 Horrors, Bolt
122
5 Horrors, Bolt
105
5 Horrors, Bolt
105
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
1750
Fateweaver's almost madatory if I want to stay on the table. Horrors with saves better than Marine ones? Yes please. Flamers fry exposed infantry or can hold down heavy shooting by glancing tanks. The Changeling's awesome. The other Horror squads are designed to maybe pop a tank or fry a squad, get shot/charged, and evaporate, leaving me free to shoot next turn. The DPs are there to help open transports, fry MEQs with gaze, and do the heavy lifting in combat. Iron Hide is on because I really don't need them dying to small arms fire, and with Fateweaver the difference between 3+ and 4+ is a 14% increase in survivability. That's worth about 14% of the DP's points to me.
Now, there's balanced Daemon armies that can outfight just about anything in the game in HtH, there are wacky-ass Daemon builds like "Skarbrand's Bitches" or the Epidemius Tally List, and then there's mono-Tzeentch. Very little HtH power means that if you go mass horrors, you'll get multicharged right back to the Warp. Soul Grinders really don't help that much since the Lord of Change sucks and they'd be the only melta targets on the board. Furthermore, they can't really open trasports for flamer and horror anti-infantry goodness.
So taking that into consideration, my list for 1750 looks like this:
Fateweaver
333
3 Flamers
105
3 Flamers
105
3 Flamers
105
10 Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
200
6 Horrors, Bolt
122
5 Horrors, Bolt
105
5 Horrors, Bolt
105
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
DP, MoTZ, Bolt, Gaze, Iron Hide
190
1750
Fateweaver's almost madatory if I want to stay on the table. Horrors with saves better than Marine ones? Yes please. Flamers fry exposed infantry or can hold down heavy shooting by glancing tanks. The Changeling's awesome. The other Horror squads are designed to maybe pop a tank or fry a squad, get shot/charged, and evaporate, leaving me free to shoot next turn. The DPs are there to help open transports, fry MEQs with gaze, and do the heavy lifting in combat. Iron Hide is on because I really don't need them dying to small arms fire, and with Fateweaver the difference between 3+ and 4+ is a 14% increase in survivability. That's worth about 14% of the DP's points to me.
Something else to do...
Because blogging about 40K is apparently a good thing, I have decided to pollute the internet with my random thoughts about 40K, hence, what you're reading.
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)